Atta boy Kaleb. Keep it focused on God. We’re not here for bubba. It’s not your job to make Christ taste good. It’s our job to worship Him in spirit and in truth. And I think honesty “bubba” would respect you more for not changing your vibe or principles or pronouns for anyone’s sake. Worship is for The Lord. Let Christ be King.
From a Biblical perspective hymns and songs and spiritual songs are addressed to one another whereby we make melody in our hearts to God (Eph. 5:18-19).
In God's presence there is unfiltered, direct adoration of God from the angels but angelic worship is not human worship. We transmit our worship of God through how we treat one another even in a worship service. Makes me wonder what a biblical worship song directed at one another would sound like, because I have never heard anything like it in all my years in the church.
I had the privilege of cowriting a song like this! A song for the church to sing to the church. I don't have it recorded yet, but I'll see if I can get a demo up soon.
Brandon Lake is not the problem. He is following his pastor who said their church is not for Christians, it's for the lost. So he is applying to worship the ecclesiology of the one who has formed him.
I can't pretend to understand the true motivations behind not desiring church to be for the ecclesia, but it is a terrible path of spiritual deformation.
I agree with your main point, and that was actually really good for me to chew as both a worship leader and songwriter. On the other hand, I am a believer who has been walking with the Lord for eleven years now, and the Christianese is too easy to tune out. I think what Brandon was saying is that we need to use language for the layman. We have so many songs like "Raised with Christ" by Echo Worship with lines like "I'm a child of freedom / victory is running through my veins," but those words "freedom" and "victory" are so overused they have lost meaning. They don't evoke anything in me unless the lyrics gives better context. Especially when I'm feeling no victory over the wasps at my door. A song like "Set a Fire" is a too empty for someone who isn't already feeling it. "Come Tou Fount" is one of my favorite hymns, but I would (probably) never put it in my worship set because of all the archaic language. Leading involves guiding the follower in a way he/she can understand and relate. You're right, the direction is worship of God. We just want to sing lyrics that mean something to an ordinary person in our Monday-Saturday vernacular. If you want a good modern-day hymn that sings in modern English without slacking on depth, listen to "The Lord is a Mighty King" by Psallos.
Hi Jaimie, thanks for reading this. I’m not talking about radio or mainstream music; our conversation (which Brandon started) is in the context of sacred gatherings of God’s People as the ekklesia, the Church. I’m trying to clarify that what we do in worship (for God, with believers) is different from what we do in evangelism (for unbelievers, with God). I like Brandon’s work and use some of his songs; I just think he missed this one. We all do sometimes. Myself for sure!
I’m not familiar with Lauren Daigle’s message, but I’d be curious to know what it is. Thanks again!
I’m sorry you think that’s what’s happening, and I wonder if you read the article. Disagreeing is not judging; neither is telling someone you think they’re incorrect. I could just as easily tell you “stop judging me.”
I’ve been kind and understanding but you don’t seem to be engaging with the actual content of this conversation from a Biblical perspective. Be well!
I felt the same way Brandon when I heard the interview. Like you, bubba is important. We want to reach him. But I believe the church ought to be a place where we encounter God in such a way that is totally different that any other. It ought to be uncomfortable. Not in a bad sense. But in the sense where we are out of our element because we are in God's. There are plenty of ways to connect with Bubba. But worship is where we connect with God. In reality, Bubba will get used to it and crave it if it is authentic.
Hmm…. Here’s the thing… music and worship are vehicles the Lord uses to reach the lost…. It’s not necessarily in the words but in the spirit they carry that convicts a person.. a person who never knows Jesus will listen to worship and doesn’t understand a word that is being said but they are recked by the encounter of the spirit behind the worship. I believe that we as Christian should focus on worship in truth and spirit. It’s all about intimacy and fellowship… Sometimes, trying to ‘save the lost’ can be a distraction… The lost is not ours to save… Mary broke her alabaster box and the fragrance left an impact on those around… Her focus was on Jesus not on those around but the people around felt the impact of her worship that even Jesus said wherever the gospel is preached her action would be testified of. Let’s all keep our gaze fixed on Jesus… everything else is a distraction ❤️🙌
Hi Kaleb! I'm Caleb. Read your article. There's a lot to think about here. Have you thought about reaching out to Brandon? Might be good to have a conversation.
I do feel the difficulty of translating all the Christianese terms into normal speak - in some ways, all of our theological terminology has become a new Latin that keeps people out. From the quote you've given here, it seems like that's the sort of thing Brandon is struggling with lyrically...
Lake is right that we need songs for “Bubba”, and I applaud what seems to be a new understanding for the need of evangelism and the role music can play in that. If he wants to go that route, that would be welcome. So much of Christian music has become inward focused and safe. Christian music used for evangelism, or in secular contexts, is not nearly as supported as it should be (or used to be). It’s all “worship” these days.
But then we see that he highlights the problem but doesn’t realize he creates the problem by conflating worship with music for “Bubba”.
“Hard fought Hallelujah” is not a worship song by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that he doesn’t seem to understand his own craft is really concerning. I wish someone was around to help him understand the difference, but sadly the Christian music industry functions very obstinately. It sees itself as innovative in ideas like “songs for Bubba” but in reality all it tends to do is water everything down to the lowest common denominator (often musically too).
YEEEESSSSSSS!!!! I was literally just talking about the gap between evangelism and discipleship. We want to evangelize but we're failing to disciple. Church isn't for evangelism, its for discipleship, and trying to make worship for "Bubba" is honestly just a way of avoiding the burden of discipleship. Instead of someone putting in the effort to disciple Bubba and explain to him what "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty" means, let's just cut that out so we don't have to explain it, or worse, because we ourselves can't explain it.
My pastor preached about Pentecost today and the scripture that stood out to me was Acts 2:42. In that verse the 4 things new believers did TOGETHER while devoting themselves to God were: teaching (discipleship in God's words and ways), fellowship, eating together as well as partaking in communion, and prayer. I was drawn to the fact that the word translated as devoted means to constantly do or think about AND that fellowship and the breaking of bread aside from communion were two different things.
I need to study that passage a little more in the Greek, but I grew up in a small church that took all four of those things seriously. We regularly sang hymns and used all four verses if they had them. There were musical productions for every major holiday and the whole church body from kids to the elderly were involved. Prayer groups and Bible studies were spontaneous and full. Potlucks we're held monthly and people shared freely. My favorite thing was a monthly Sunday night sing along service. Our worship leader and choir director asked for requests and we would spend the whole hour singing hymns and breaking into spontaneous prayers. None of the songs we sang repeated the same phrases over and over about ourselves and what God can do for us. They were all about God's character, His miracles, His words of warning or blessing and OUR SINFUL NATURE and how HE changes us. Before the worship chorus trend became big, songs had more meaty theology woven into them in my opinion. Lots of things about "church" nowadays feel too light and centered on the individual benefits God can give us instead of how we're part of a great collective of people given a gift of grace that is to be shared amongst the many.
In our current church I feel there's a disconnect between the meat of our Pastor's sermons and the worship time. I'm tired of singing the same five phrases over and over with a catchy tune. If, as a believer, I feel this way I can only imagine how a seeker feels. We need the depth and mystery of God outside our own selves now more than ever in our country and the Western church as a whole. I pray for the depth to return.
Those are precious bits of perspective, Amy. I understand you, I think. I come from small rural churches too, bred in the pews of prayer and fire on the outskirts of town. The good news is I think people are starting to come around to the "meaty" things of the Word and Spirit. Here's hoping.
Thank you so much for reading and offering your vantage point! So valuable.
Yes, you get it. It was a small town church and at the time I didn't appreciate it much. The difficulty with small churches is that, well, small means everyone knows everything about everyone! Lol! Like with anything a bunch of sinners gets together to do there can be friction and angst and wrong theology in the mix.... BUT GOD... He has taken the good and grown it in me and helped me continue to cut off the unhealthy things. I don't idolize that small church upbringing as much as I pray for the balance of right action being the byproduct of right theology. Living in the world but not of it is hard individually not to mention collectively. Being musically inclined and having three out of four children who have an ear for music, what goes in those ears sticks more than most! I guess that's why worship music and the worship part of the service are so impactful to me and I long for more God, less me during worship.
While I don't disagree with everything you're saying, I think what Brandon is talking about in that section of the interview is the times he is singing in front of secular audiences who don't know God yet. He's saying to not be like a clique that doesn't allow others in, therefore not bringing any new person to saving power. It would be like if someone started talking Spanish to me to get me to go to their church or school or wherever. I don't know Spanish. While our worship in churches should be WORSHIP (i.e. not concerts, shows, displays of our own talents - I TOTALLY agree with you on that point), we are called to go out into world to make disciples. We can't do that if we act like a members-only club with our own language.
Atta boy Kaleb. Keep it focused on God. We’re not here for bubba. It’s not your job to make Christ taste good. It’s our job to worship Him in spirit and in truth. And I think honesty “bubba” would respect you more for not changing your vibe or principles or pronouns for anyone’s sake. Worship is for The Lord. Let Christ be King.
Thanks Alex! You're the man. 💪
From a Biblical perspective hymns and songs and spiritual songs are addressed to one another whereby we make melody in our hearts to God (Eph. 5:18-19).
In God's presence there is unfiltered, direct adoration of God from the angels but angelic worship is not human worship. We transmit our worship of God through how we treat one another even in a worship service. Makes me wonder what a biblical worship song directed at one another would sound like, because I have never heard anything like it in all my years in the church.
I had the privilege of cowriting a song like this! A song for the church to sing to the church. I don't have it recorded yet, but I'll see if I can get a demo up soon.
Interesting. I'd be curious to hear the same. Thanks for reading, Daniel!
I think Paul said it in one of his letters… Give Bubba a light beer first before an IPA.
Maybe the answer lies in the middle. Both songs ( holy, holy, holy, and hard fought hallelujah) can be offered to God as worship.
I think the biggest issue is what the people singing holy holy holy Lord are doing to reach Bubba Monday through Saturday.
Brandon Lake is not the problem. He is following his pastor who said their church is not for Christians, it's for the lost. So he is applying to worship the ecclesiology of the one who has formed him.
I can't pretend to understand the true motivations behind not desiring church to be for the ecclesia, but it is a terrible path of spiritual deformation.
Yep, which is why I’m saddened.
I agree with your main point, and that was actually really good for me to chew as both a worship leader and songwriter. On the other hand, I am a believer who has been walking with the Lord for eleven years now, and the Christianese is too easy to tune out. I think what Brandon was saying is that we need to use language for the layman. We have so many songs like "Raised with Christ" by Echo Worship with lines like "I'm a child of freedom / victory is running through my veins," but those words "freedom" and "victory" are so overused they have lost meaning. They don't evoke anything in me unless the lyrics gives better context. Especially when I'm feeling no victory over the wasps at my door. A song like "Set a Fire" is a too empty for someone who isn't already feeling it. "Come Tou Fount" is one of my favorite hymns, but I would (probably) never put it in my worship set because of all the archaic language. Leading involves guiding the follower in a way he/she can understand and relate. You're right, the direction is worship of God. We just want to sing lyrics that mean something to an ordinary person in our Monday-Saturday vernacular. If you want a good modern-day hymn that sings in modern English without slacking on depth, listen to "The Lord is a Mighty King" by Psallos.
Hi Jaimie, thanks for reading this. I’m not talking about radio or mainstream music; our conversation (which Brandon started) is in the context of sacred gatherings of God’s People as the ekklesia, the Church. I’m trying to clarify that what we do in worship (for God, with believers) is different from what we do in evangelism (for unbelievers, with God). I like Brandon’s work and use some of his songs; I just think he missed this one. We all do sometimes. Myself for sure!
I’m not familiar with Lauren Daigle’s message, but I’d be curious to know what it is. Thanks again!
I’m sorry you think that’s what’s happening, and I wonder if you read the article. Disagreeing is not judging; neither is telling someone you think they’re incorrect. I could just as easily tell you “stop judging me.”
I’ve been kind and understanding but you don’t seem to be engaging with the actual content of this conversation from a Biblical perspective. Be well!
Not judgmental. Basing ideas off the Scriptures. My feelings don’t matter. 🤷♂️
I don't like Brandon's using the phrase holy cr_p... that is not righteous at all. A Christian should never couple those two words together.
He's definitely made some... "unique" decisions as of late. 😄 Thanks for reading Melanie!
I felt the same way Brandon when I heard the interview. Like you, bubba is important. We want to reach him. But I believe the church ought to be a place where we encounter God in such a way that is totally different that any other. It ought to be uncomfortable. Not in a bad sense. But in the sense where we are out of our element because we are in God's. There are plenty of ways to connect with Bubba. But worship is where we connect with God. In reality, Bubba will get used to it and crave it if it is authentic.
Hmm…. Here’s the thing… music and worship are vehicles the Lord uses to reach the lost…. It’s not necessarily in the words but in the spirit they carry that convicts a person.. a person who never knows Jesus will listen to worship and doesn’t understand a word that is being said but they are recked by the encounter of the spirit behind the worship. I believe that we as Christian should focus on worship in truth and spirit. It’s all about intimacy and fellowship… Sometimes, trying to ‘save the lost’ can be a distraction… The lost is not ours to save… Mary broke her alabaster box and the fragrance left an impact on those around… Her focus was on Jesus not on those around but the people around felt the impact of her worship that even Jesus said wherever the gospel is preached her action would be testified of. Let’s all keep our gaze fixed on Jesus… everything else is a distraction ❤️🙌
Our gaze on Jesus is everything. Thanks for sharing! 🙏
Hi Kaleb! I'm Caleb. Read your article. There's a lot to think about here. Have you thought about reaching out to Brandon? Might be good to have a conversation.
I do feel the difficulty of translating all the Christianese terms into normal speak - in some ways, all of our theological terminology has become a new Latin that keeps people out. From the quote you've given here, it seems like that's the sort of thing Brandon is struggling with lyrically...
Lake is right that we need songs for “Bubba”, and I applaud what seems to be a new understanding for the need of evangelism and the role music can play in that. If he wants to go that route, that would be welcome. So much of Christian music has become inward focused and safe. Christian music used for evangelism, or in secular contexts, is not nearly as supported as it should be (or used to be). It’s all “worship” these days.
But then we see that he highlights the problem but doesn’t realize he creates the problem by conflating worship with music for “Bubba”.
“Hard fought Hallelujah” is not a worship song by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that he doesn’t seem to understand his own craft is really concerning. I wish someone was around to help him understand the difference, but sadly the Christian music industry functions very obstinately. It sees itself as innovative in ideas like “songs for Bubba” but in reality all it tends to do is water everything down to the lowest common denominator (often musically too).
YEEEESSSSSSS!!!! I was literally just talking about the gap between evangelism and discipleship. We want to evangelize but we're failing to disciple. Church isn't for evangelism, its for discipleship, and trying to make worship for "Bubba" is honestly just a way of avoiding the burden of discipleship. Instead of someone putting in the effort to disciple Bubba and explain to him what "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty" means, let's just cut that out so we don't have to explain it, or worse, because we ourselves can't explain it.
My pastor preached about Pentecost today and the scripture that stood out to me was Acts 2:42. In that verse the 4 things new believers did TOGETHER while devoting themselves to God were: teaching (discipleship in God's words and ways), fellowship, eating together as well as partaking in communion, and prayer. I was drawn to the fact that the word translated as devoted means to constantly do or think about AND that fellowship and the breaking of bread aside from communion were two different things.
I need to study that passage a little more in the Greek, but I grew up in a small church that took all four of those things seriously. We regularly sang hymns and used all four verses if they had them. There were musical productions for every major holiday and the whole church body from kids to the elderly were involved. Prayer groups and Bible studies were spontaneous and full. Potlucks we're held monthly and people shared freely. My favorite thing was a monthly Sunday night sing along service. Our worship leader and choir director asked for requests and we would spend the whole hour singing hymns and breaking into spontaneous prayers. None of the songs we sang repeated the same phrases over and over about ourselves and what God can do for us. They were all about God's character, His miracles, His words of warning or blessing and OUR SINFUL NATURE and how HE changes us. Before the worship chorus trend became big, songs had more meaty theology woven into them in my opinion. Lots of things about "church" nowadays feel too light and centered on the individual benefits God can give us instead of how we're part of a great collective of people given a gift of grace that is to be shared amongst the many.
In our current church I feel there's a disconnect between the meat of our Pastor's sermons and the worship time. I'm tired of singing the same five phrases over and over with a catchy tune. If, as a believer, I feel this way I can only imagine how a seeker feels. We need the depth and mystery of God outside our own selves now more than ever in our country and the Western church as a whole. I pray for the depth to return.
Those are precious bits of perspective, Amy. I understand you, I think. I come from small rural churches too, bred in the pews of prayer and fire on the outskirts of town. The good news is I think people are starting to come around to the "meaty" things of the Word and Spirit. Here's hoping.
Thank you so much for reading and offering your vantage point! So valuable.
Yes, you get it. It was a small town church and at the time I didn't appreciate it much. The difficulty with small churches is that, well, small means everyone knows everything about everyone! Lol! Like with anything a bunch of sinners gets together to do there can be friction and angst and wrong theology in the mix.... BUT GOD... He has taken the good and grown it in me and helped me continue to cut off the unhealthy things. I don't idolize that small church upbringing as much as I pray for the balance of right action being the byproduct of right theology. Living in the world but not of it is hard individually not to mention collectively. Being musically inclined and having three out of four children who have an ear for music, what goes in those ears sticks more than most! I guess that's why worship music and the worship part of the service are so impactful to me and I long for more God, less me during worship.
I love hearing about kids gifted by God in the arts. What a sweet blessing! We're praying for balance to come to the Body together! Thanks, friend. 🙏
Bubba's intellect may not understand, but his spirit will be impacted.
And God's Holy Spirit will never be hindered by any lack of understanding on our part.
While I don't disagree with everything you're saying, I think what Brandon is talking about in that section of the interview is the times he is singing in front of secular audiences who don't know God yet. He's saying to not be like a clique that doesn't allow others in, therefore not bringing any new person to saving power. It would be like if someone started talking Spanish to me to get me to go to their church or school or wherever. I don't know Spanish. While our worship in churches should be WORSHIP (i.e. not concerts, shows, displays of our own talents - I TOTALLY agree with you on that point), we are called to go out into world to make disciples. We can't do that if we act like a members-only club with our own language.
Thank you for a wonderful, respectful, yet passionate response to all this. I'd been looking for one lol
Giving it a shot. Trying to be real on iTunes. Won’t let me post a link.